What has worked well in the new building of the Museum of Modern Art, and what still needs improvement? How many meters is the largest hall and what will happen to the Pavilion on the Vistula River? Finally - how has the MSN building been received by Warsaw residents? Director of the Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw Joanna Mytkowska is interviewed by Małgorzata Tomczak.
Joanna MYTKOWSKA - director of the Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw (since 2007), art critic and historian (graduate of art history at Warsaw University), curator of many exhibitions. Co-founder of the Foksal Gallery Foundation. Curator of the Espace 315 space at the Pompidou Center in Paris and the Polish Pavilion at the Venice Art Biennale (2005).
opening with politics in the background
Malgorzata Tomczak: The opening of the new building of the Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw is behind us. How did it turn out?
Joanna Mytkowska: It completely exceeded our expectations. We expected a large number of visitors, but such popularity we did not anticipate. Over the weekend we jumped from a fairly small organization into a large museum. [Laughs]
Malgorzata Tomczak: A large museum - what does that mean? How many people were there?
Joanna Mytkowska: We had almost 150,000 visitors during the opening weekend-weekend.
Malgorzata Tomczak: That's a real success!
Joanna Mytkowska: Yes, it's really a lot of people. On the one hand, it's great, because we've had friendly reactions highlighting the role of the museum, especially in the international press. On social media, of course, it's different, but that's okay too. This is the first time we've clashed with such a mass audience with different demands, comments and needs - so it's been very enlightening. There are also extreme reactions that we didn't expect at all, such as mass touching of artworks. [Laughter]
Malgorzata Tomczak: This is indeed an interesting reaction. You even published a request to "not touch" on social media.
Joanna Mytkowska: Our museum was eagerly visited, we had our audience, but 150,000 viewers visited us for a year! With this opening, we learned about the capabilities of our new building, and that's the great part of the experience. The auditorium works great: on the one hand, it's quite an intimate space, and on the other hand, it's unique through lighting and acoustics. The hit, of course, is the staircase; we didn't think it would become such a stage. People love to be there, show off, take pictures, stop, discuss.
Malgorzata Tomczak: You have planned two openings: the first, in October, of the building itself is already behind us; the second, with exhibitions, is planned for February 2025. The program for the first one was very rich.
Joanna Mytkowska: It was mainly performances. At the same time, different things were happening in different spaces of the museum. And the building was really alive. It's a very positive experience, although of course we measure ourselves against the fact that such a large audience requires more people to handle it. We are building new experiences and catching up quickly.
Malgorzata Tomczak: Social media was full of posts about MSN, politicians felt obliged to express their opinion about the building, MSN was a must-see on all news services, even "Rymanowski's Breakfast" on Polsat. [Laughs] I don't recall any building after '89 being the subject of such a lively debate on architecture. How do you feel about becoming part of next year's presidential campaign and political debate?
Joanna Mytkowska: Well, politics has its own laws. I don't think the museum and our program have ever been so hotly debated as they are now. And it's quite funny, because there are voices from both the left and the right. Ever since President Rafal Trzaskowski spoke for us out of office, we have been tagged as a liberal institution.
Malgorzata Tomczak: Rafal Trzaskowski, or the City of Warsaw, is an investor in the MSN and, much to the point, a candidate for President of Poland. This has focused attention.
Joanna Mytkowska: Rafał Trzaskowski is a politician of great stature. In the past, he had the courage not to close the project, to find money for it, to oppose the opposition voices (they were always there). When he saw dozens of journalists from all over the world at the press conference, he immediately announced to the media that this museum "is supposed to be controversial and this is its mission." And I was most taken by the fact that when he visited us shortly before the opening, just as we were rehearsing a performance by Hungarian-Serbian artist Katalin Ladik, who came to us fromBudapest, and with whom we communicated through an interpreter, the President, having discovered that the artist spoke Serbian, fluently carried on a conversation with her in that language. So chapeau bas for his linguistic and interpersonal skills. Katalin Ladik is a radical artist who brought the staircase to life with her voice at the opening.
The experience with Rafal Trzaskowski was fantastic, but the consequence is that we have his opponents against each other, so to speak, by default, without any nuance. The attack of the right was quite predictable, the attitudes of the left side of the stage are more complex. It is very encouraging to see nuanced positions, such as that of Filip Springer, who verified his initial concerns after visiting MSN. MSN is a large public building, so the discussion will be, and may it last as long as possible.
The cage with the sculpted staircase proved a hit with the public
Photo credit: Nate Cook | courtesy of Thomas Phifer and Partners
Malgorzata Tomczak: This national debate about architecture that the new MSN building has sparked is amazing. Especially since it's a simple white block. No icon. In view of this, do you foresee a continuation of the discussion about contemporary architecture in your educational program? This is a unique opportunity and it would be a shame to let it die.
Joanna Mytkowska: We have already introduced at least three program activities that work with this topic. First is an architectural audioguide - you can tour a building while listening to a narrative about it. The second element is the "Warsaw under Construction" festival, which tries to broaden this discussion, both about the Parade Square and about museum architecture in general. Third are the meetings. There was with Thomas Phifer, there was with the curators of "Warsaw under Construction," which just problematized the issue of the building or expectations from it. And finally today [on the day of the interview - editor's note] there is a meeting with Michal Murawski, who is the author of a book that very critically describes the context of the creation and architecture of the MSN on Parade Square. Of course, we will continue these activities with architecture. Architecture is permanently present in our program, thanks to the curatorship of Tomek Fudala. There are also guided tours of the building by very interesting people, for example Filip Springer, Grzegorz Piątek and many others.
Malgorzata Tomczak: And the Varsovians? Have they fallen in love with the new MSN building?
Joanna Mytkowska: You would have to do research to be sure. Varsovians have certainly accepted MSN and the fact that they have it in the city. One can come, one can attend events, one can watch. One can criticize. And I like that. The relationship to the building is somehow part of the MSN project. Such quite open, contemporary, nothing on your knees, but also not by rejection that it's not mine. I was told that discussions in the city were in this tone: have you already been to MSN, are you going to MSN and what do you think of MSN.
The staircase is also a stage for visitors
photo: Pat Mic | courtesy of Thomas Phifer and Partners
interior
Malgorzata Tomczak: How has the building performed? What works very well, and what is there to correct?
Joanna Mytkowska: The museum is able to accommodate just over 2,000 people at any one time, so the crowd at the opening, significantly exceeding that number, was the biggest challenge. We had to manage the attention of an audience of thousands waiting for more than an hour to be able to enter the building. Anticipating such a situation, we prepared projections on the façade. This seems to have appealed and worked very well. We also know that during the summer season the forum in front of the museum can be used for events scheduled for a larger audience. The staircase certainly worked well. The architect came up with it as a stage for visitors, a place to see each other.
Malgorzata Tomczak: A very Instagram-like place.
Joanna Mytkowska: Instagram-like is one thing, but this is a community place. And it was an interesting experience for us. After the opening, we corrected the idea that only the first floor should be non-ticketed, and the entrance to the floors through this staircase already with tickets. After this experience, we want to check tickets at the entrance to the gallery, and let everyone walk freely not only on the first floor, but also on those stairs. Because this is the experience of the building for the general public. This is the conclusion of the opening week.
I think those views of Warsaw worked as well, very many people spent time by the big windows.
Malgorzata Tomczak: And what didn't work?
Joanna Mytkowska: The walls by those windows and by the window sills are dirty, so we are discussing with the architect and with the contractor what to cover them with, so that we don't put up a bench that will screen a little from that wide window sill, and at the same time keep the building in that pristine cleanliness that we like. We don't know much about the exhibition halls yet.
Malgorzata Tomczak: How many meters is the largest exhibition hall?
Joanna Mytkowska: 600 square meters - we've already had concerts and performances there, and we know that this building works wonderfully for performance activities, by the way, very characteristic of contemporary art and culture. Sitting in those halls, in those lobbies and watching the performances, participating in them was a wonderful experience, because the architecture added glamour, meaning to them. We are still before the exhibition test. Well, and the auditorium certainly proved itself. The meeting with Thomas Phifer, attended by 300 or so people (the auditorium is planned for 250), showed that it worked perfectly. The acoustics, despite the crowd, were very good. In addition, Thomas Phifer - this is probably rare in the Polish architectural world - received a standing ovation.
Malgorzata Tomczak: Indeed, this is rather unprecedented. [Laughter]
Joanna Mytkowska: We also checked how the educational halls and the audience in them function. I can responsibly say that it works. We have some minor comments that we collected from the audience, regarding the checkroom, for example. It is mechanical, the numbers turn slowly, so a queue forms there. Especially with this kind of traffic. We haven't checked the offices yet, because we haven't moved as a team. That's still ahead of us.
Malgorzata Tomczak: When will that happen?
Joanna Mytkowska: By the end of the year. We have to repeat the tender for furniture. It will take a while, but of all the tenders, the one for our furniture was the least priority.
Malgorzata Tomczak: And the steep staircase? The public complained about this aspect of the staircase.
Joanna Mytkowska: The system evaluation is yet to come, so at this point we are gathering all the necessary information. But this may indeed be the case. These stairs obviously meet all standards. We have also had discussions with the accessibility committee from the city, and together we are reviewing the architectural solutions. There are elevators in the building, so it's not like these stairs have to be used, but we will look into it.
Monica Sosnowska's sculpture in one of the exhibition rooms
Photo: Nate Cook | courtesy of Thomas Phifer and Partners
From Kerez to Phifer
Malgorzata Tomczak: If the Foster and Partners office had won, would the reactions to the new building have been similar? Norman Foster is a star architect, Thomas Phifer is not. To what extent does the success lie in the architecture itself, and to what extent in the circumstances, which we have already talked a little about.
Joanna Mytkowska: I think the fact that the building is controversial helped. If it had been Foster, there probably would have been fewer of them. His design would have been more obvious, more like what was around. As for the opening of the building itself, the fact that it was an uneasy, ambitious, to some extent experimental project, paradoxically attracted attention. Controversy attracts more than confirmation of the viewer's expectations. I exemplify other criteria here. It seems to me that the advantage of this building is its functionality in terms of purely logistical and utility, also in terms of how it is able to support the showing of art. This art will look great here, charismatic and stunning. Well, and this for the functioning of the museum is extremely important, in a way the most important, because the permanence of this building is calculated for very, very long years. Now we have a moment of opening intensification, we are discussing - importantly - various aspects of this project, but from the point of view of the institution, its functional qualities are key. We will be up and running in a year, and in five years, and these subsequent exhibitions, I think, will continue to delight, also thanks to the architectural solutions of the building itself.
Malgorzata Tomczak: Don't you regret that the author of the project is not Christian Kerez?
Joanna Mytkowska: That would also be controversial. When we worked with Christian Kerez, I did everything I could to realize this project, but it didn't work out. Of course, I had fewer opportunities, because the Museum did not manage the project. The client was the Capital City Development Authority, and we were only a user. We didn't have enough tools to influence the project. In any case, this project was certainly a greater architectural challenge for many reasons. It was also a different stage. Please remember that the Kerez museum was much larger. When we lost that project, we were able to tailor the building again, to our liking. We reduced it by half. This allowed us to build the museum at all. It will also allow us to maintain it. So now I have nothing to regret, these were the moves that led to the building, and because we had this second approach, we were able to quietly work out a functional plan.
Malgorzata Tomczak: During the time of director Tadeusz Zielniewicz, your predecessor, we were counting on an icon. That was in 2007, we all had different expectations of museum architecture then. A rational, functional design by Kerez was chosen. I remember that the environment was also very divided, he also aroused great controversy.
Joanna Mytkowska: Christian Kerez, who came from Switzerland, a place where then (because now I don't think) the discussion about museums was much more advanced, had a different vision. A post-iconic one, which we contemporaries probably also already share, but was this project functional? He was functional to the program that the team at the time proposed. In that functional program, this building had 35,000 square meters (the current one has almost 20,000), of which 10,000 were for so-called cultural industries. Back then we also had a period, everyone probably remembers, of admiration for Richard Florida and how cultural industries affect the development of the economy of cities. This has already been verified many times. When our team set to work on the design of the building, we were in a quandary as to what the cultural industries should be. We had a lot of trouble with this. As a result, there was an idea to add a theater, so to speak, in place of the cultural industries. For a while Christian Kerez was involved in the breakneck design of the theater inside the museum, then it turned out that all this would not work out anyway. The city didn't have the rights to the plots, so it was impossible to get a building permit. And on top of that the budget was unclear, these were times of quite advanced inflation, the prices of building materials were constantly changing. There were too many unknowns and obstacles along the way.
When we embarked on this project for the second time, the architectural competition was preceded by two years of work on a very precise functional program, which was an annex to the tender. This allowed us to keep an eye on and control the process itself, and ensured that we practically stayed within budget. There was a valorization due to massive inflation, but the project budget itself increased within 5 percent. The process that was carried out allowed us to select a studio that understood our needs, was willing to work with us, talk to us and had experience, which was crucial after this two-time failure in competitions. Studio Phifera had practical experience in building museums. It knew how to design such buildings. That, in a nutshell, is what this transition from Kerez to Phifer looks like now.
Malgorzata Tomczak: When was the separation of TR [Variety Theater - the block currently under construction between the Palace of Culture and Science and MSN on Parade Square] and MSN?
Joanna Mytkowska: It was a purely pragmatic idea. We never wanted to separate, we wanted to build together. We were ready for that. While the plots of land under the Museum were cleared of claims relatively quickly, the issue of one plot of land, 300 square meters located under the future theater, was only recently settled. So we had to separate the investments, otherwise the construction of the MSN would also have been significantly delayed.
Malgorzata Tomczak: What will happen to the Pavilion on the Vistula River?
Joanna Mytkowska: At the moment there is a bidding procedure for the modernization of the Pavilion and a competition for a one-year curatorial concept. The intention is that it will be rebuilt into an institution that will serve contemporary dance. A stage will be built in there, the disposition of the interior will be slightly changed. Well, and for a year or so the institution will function as a branch of the Museum. The city plans to establish a new institution that will be dedicated to the performing arts: dance, choreography.
Malgorzata Tomczak: Thank you for the interview!
interviewed by Małgorzata Tomczak
more: A&B 12/2024 - THIRD CITIES,
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